Kommentare

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• 10.11.2009 03:12:06 kwasimodo

  Fans of Borussia Dortmund still call the place Wesfalenstadion or say Stadion.
  I guess people really don't care what the official name is as long as the club gets some money out of it.
  
  I think people would care if the name of their club is in question.

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• 10.11.2009 08:41:23 Süüdkurvä

  sponsoring and football? well, in a way it's nothing new... after all, there are even clubs named after companies. and that's not a prerogative of "capitalist countries" (in times of the iron curtain), as the examples of Einhoven & Philips (PSV = Philips' Sport Vereniging) or Leverkusen & Bayer show... interestingly, many clubs in communist countries did the same (like fc carl zeiss jena, or fc lada togliatti)... and this 'habit' was kept even after the fall of the iron curtain, as the funny example of amkar perm proves (wikipedia: "The name Amkar is created from the words "ammoniac" and "carbamide", the main products of the factory.")

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• 10.11.2009 09:13:40 teenage_boredom

  he difference is, that companies like bayer, wacker, carl zeiss or philipps have there roots in leverkusen, burghausen or jena, so the fans and people are emotional connected to the company... maybe they even work for them...
  but what the hell has emirate to do with arsenal?? i would get mad if the grünwalder stadion would be called fujitsu arena... but I think this will never happen... haha

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• 10.11.2009 09:34:03 Ripuli

  I wouldn't say that the debate has been settled here in Germany, and naming rights have clearly been a very contentious issue in the past. However, the heated discussions of 2001 (when Hamburg became the first big team to rename their stadium) have cooled down a little lately, and many fans seem to have accepted that the fact that their stadium has a funny "alternative name", used mainly in official club documents and the media, in order to bring in some extra cash. However, the old names remain as common as before, and many fans secretly hope that their home will one day return to its traditional name, as most of these naming rights contracts do only cover a limited period of time.
  
  Besides, as you pointed out correctly, there are far less discussions when an entirely new stadium is built, so Allianz-Arena in Munich and Veltins-Arena in Gelsenkirchen have been widely accepted as being the "true" names of these stadia (although, personally, I prefer to call them "Arroganz-Arena" and "Turnhalle"). On the other hand, there has been a strong opposition in cities with very traditional stadiums, like Nuremberg and Dortmund. Hamburg is a special case, as their stadium seems to be changing names every couple of years - which has led many people to simply calling it "the stadium in the Volkspark", which is pretty close to the original name "Volksparkstadium".
  
  And finally, there are some brands that you simply do NOT want to be the "godfather" of your stadium. At least financial or industrial companies like Allianz (in Munich), Commerzbank (in Frankfurt) or Bayer (in Leverkusen) do emanate a sense of professionality and "big money". But then, think of a name like "Playmobil-Stadion", which sounds like it was constructed from a set of plastic toys. Nobody deserves that, not even the fans of Greuther Fürth.

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• 10.11.2009 10:41:26 southfreak

  actually the "veltins arena" was originally named "arena auf schalke". it seems to be a modern trend to call stadiums arenas.
  
  i can remember when the new stadium in munich was about to be constructed. i was 16 at the time and i was rather grateful that the allianz insurance company which my grandfather had worked for for a long time was investing in the project so we (the fans) could have a real football stadium without tracks. i was very familiar with and fond of the allianz company so i didnt mind. that point of view hasnt really changed, simple because what else would you call this monstrosity of a stadium? a lifeless, grey construct that lacks any resemblence of an actual football stadium. no, the name fits. there a some people who call it "stadion am kurt landauer weg" to honor our past president kurt landauer but personally i dont think old kurt would be happy to be associated with this embodiment of commercialization.
  
  its a totally different topic when it comes to older grounds. many old stadiums rich of tradition and history already have a second name. for example the "fritz-walter-stadion" in kaiserslautern which is commonly called "betzenberg" after the hill it is located on. renaming a stadium like that is a crime in my eyes.
  
  and the real problem isnt that the official name is changed. no the press, which dominates the common person's opinion and makes them think the way they are supposed to think is the real problem. little kids starting to call a ground "badenova arena", "easy credit stadion" or sh*t like that. it is important to fight this and honor the old names so they will never be forgotten.
  
  so long

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• 10.11.2009 10:56:09 Titus Chalk

  Guten Morgen!
  
  Und wieder Vielen Dank für eure 'comments'.
  
  The Playmobil-Stadion is a truly bizarre name and one I don't think strikes fear into the hearts of visiting teams! For that the 'Arroganz Arena' seems more appropriate..
  
  There are clearly examples of working out well - and for new stadiums the issue certainly seems less contentious. It is for the team, upon arrival in a new home, to make the history - something Arsenal for example so far failed to do at their new home, having not won a trophy since 2005. That blank canvas aspect must be very appealing to sponsors whose name becomes woven into the fabric of success in a new stadium.
  
  Do you think the big shift in Germany to accepting the renaming of stadiums would have happened so quickly without the 50+1 rule?
  
  The renaming of teams is far more contentious (and how long before a player changes his name to incoporate a sponsor??). There does seem to be an historic precedent for certain teams where both the local industry and team are part of the community as a whole.
  
  I suppose the broader point that interests me is this: What will happen to us when every flat surface is an advert? It's a question that plagues me a lot - and I'm sure any of you who have been to England, London especially, will have noticed just how intrusive and prolific advertising is there. I know we're celebrating the 20th anniversary of a sort of capitalist consensus this week - but have we created a world where nothing has intrinsic value - only a price, and the value that its branding proclaims very loudly to have? Is there a point where the human brain will simply shut down and say 'I don't understand anymore'?
  
  Anyway - I'm thinking out loud and in a funny mood because I didn't sleep well - excuse my slightly ill-thought crazy comments... !

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• 10.11.2009 11:30:07 MarcRamone

  I think commerce wins by habit.
  
  In my opinion:
  I do not like the new stadium or arena names.
  These are names of companies and it never can offer me the feeling of "going home" to my club. A company name can´t offer a home for a club.
  
  But it is a matter of habit. The younger people who are new in the stadiums with names like that grow up with this, so in the future this is their normal football past. Only the older people who know the past with real names complain.
  
  Think of the advertisings on football jersey´s. I have seen the jersey´s without advertising only one season when I was a child. Then every club became these ads and today nobody complains although the jersey is a holy piece of a club. Today even the color of jersey´s change to the ones of the advertings company corporate design.
  
  I think the resistance on that issue is pretty low.
  
  Company names for a temporary time for stadiums is a loss of culture and without a real identity the clubs are losing an important part of their fundament.
  
  Names are an important part of language use and if stadiums have company names who are not part of the city and region and even change every time the club and culture is loosing values.
  
  And, do not forget, many of the stadium visitors are not so into football, the tradition, the club and its history anymore. Since football is part of entertainment many people come along for a short stop and thats it. Football tourism. They do not care about stadium names. But clubs should think about exact point: Why people want to see Liverpool one time and make a long trip to that place? The dream of many football fans is to see the Anfield Road for example or Camp Nou in Barcelona. Its a myth! You can not create this with a company name. Even smaller clubs having this attraction like Millerntor in St. Pauli or Tivoli in Aachen.
  
  But the more football follows commerce, the less values it transports.
  
  In Germany this discussion last since the first rename of a stadium and it is still going on. But who wins?
  
  List of all german stadium names: Link

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• 10.11.2009 11:32:19 Arthur77

  How about renaming the game itself? Why call it "football" when someone could make money by calling it "Ikea" or "Microsoft"? Considering the "carcrash of a name" you mentioned: "HSH Nordbank Arena" is also pretty bad - especially since said bank is broke and barely kept alive by taxpayer's money (which, of course, doesn't change the fact that those who drove the bank against the wall made a fortune)...

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• 10.11.2009 11:41:51 Ripuli

  I think you might be a bit overly pessimistic on this one, Titus. While it is clearly true that the Bundesliga has experienced a massive influx of capital over the last two decades, it is also true that football fans at the same time have become far more conscious of this potentially dangerous trend and, therefore, actively involved in their clubs' politics.
  
  Consider a simple historic example: When shirt sponsorship started taking off in the 1970s, it was - for legal reasons - not unusual for a Bundesliga side to replace their badge with the logo of their respective sponsor. That way, Braunschweig and Dortmund, to very traditional teams, suddenly looked like the factory squads of Jägermeister (alcohol) and Samsun (tobacco). Imagine that in today's heated atmosphere, where even a deviation from a teams traditional colours leads to angry protests from the terraces! Maybe the "good ol' times" just weren't as good as they make us believe today.
  
  Link
  Link
  
  I believe that the "politicization" of football fans that started in the 1990s has proven to be a good counter-movement to the capitalist wave, counterbalancing some of the worst excesses that we have seen in other countries (by which, unfortunately, I refer to England). Therefore, as you hinted at before, you can indeed consider the renaming of stadiums as some sort of giving in by the fans - but if this helps to remain low ticket prices and to keep out Arab (or American) investors from our league, both sides should be able to live with the agreement.
  
  After all, nobody can force me to use those stupid stadium names, right?

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• 10.11.2009 12:19:15 Süüdkurvä

  personally, i was very sad to see that even atletico bilbao, one of the 'last mohicans', had to give up their ad-free chest this year for economic reasons... despite the fact that the teams was considered to be the 'bask national team' and therefore had no sponsor on the shirt...
  
  for the same reason barça had no sponsor, being considered the catalan national team. they 'gave up' earlier than bilbao, but at least did it in style, donating (if i'm not mistaken) this ad space to unicef.
  
  considering the sposoring on the cloth, there's still a lot of room left in germany and england, no? in other countries (like switzerland), you'd find more ads on the front, back and sleeves of the shirt, and even on the players' asses, which i find most ridiculous...
  
  it's the same story with ice hockey, by the way. shirts of european teams are plastered with advertisements, whereas the shirts of nhl teams are so beautifully 'pure' and unspoiled. interestingly, those clubs (as well as in the nba) don't need/want (or agreed not to have/forced by the league) to have any advertisement on the shirt (well, besides the logo of the manufacturer...).

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• 10.11.2009 12:26:09 Süüdkurvä

  zufall: ein artikel zum thema in der heutigen nzz:
  Link
  
  Auszüge:
  Die neuste Studie des Sportmarketing-Beraters Sport + Markt belegt: Kein europäischer Verein vermarktet die Dresswerbung erfolgreicher als Bayern München. Das Kommunikationsunternehmen T-Home zahlt in der laufenden Saison umgerechnet 30,2 Millionen Franken, um auf der Brust der Bayern zu werben. Manchester United (AIG) auf Platz 2 der Rangliste erhält noch 24,8 Millionen Franken, Real Madrid (bwin) 22,7 Millionen.
  
  Manchester United wird ab nächster Saison den Schriftzug des Finanzdienstleisters Aon auf dem Dress tragen und dafür jährlich 20 Millionen Pfund erhalten. Das entspricht 33 Millionen Franken und katapultiert die Engländer auf Höhe von Hoeness' Bayern. Trotzdem bleibt das, verglichen mit den Summen, die mit TV-Rechten umgesetzt werden, Kleingeld. Das zeigt das Beispiel des FC Barcelona: Der Champions-League-Sieger trägt das Logo der Unicef auf der Brust und überweist dem Kinderhilfswerk dafür rund 2,5 Millionen Franken.

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• 10.11.2009 13:21:08 MarcRamone

  Oh, Athletic Bilbao. 11Freunde should write an article about this extraordinary club.

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• 10.11.2009 14:23:26 wurstendbinder

  ... I know we're celebrating the 20th anniversary of a sort of capitalist consensus this week ...
  
  @titus: the 9th of november is absolutely NOT about celebrating capitalism. its a festive day where we should celebrate humanity, freedom and democracy. and to make it clear: though capitalism is possible without democracy (at least countries like china are working on this, let's see how long this project will last), imho true democracy cannot come without a more or less free market!
  
  back to football now, lads :)

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• 10.11.2009 14:56:06 Veltinsbauch Eufi

  "Oh, Athletic Bilbao. 11Freunde should write an article about this extraordinary club".
  
  Über Bilbao wurde schon ein recht guter Artikel vor langer Zeit (3-4 Jahre) in der 11 Freunde veröffentlicht.

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• 10.11.2009 15:03:01 Roller

  I must say, I consider myself a part of the younger generation, or say, I haven't been watching football for my whole life. So the names AOL Arena or HSH Nordbank Arena really are sort of natural to me. After reading this article I find it kind of sad, but yes, I've already gotten used to calling the stadium in Dortmund Signal Iduna Park. It's more recent, it just stuck to me, somehow.
  
  Old traditions really are a big part of football culture, but it's evident they're fading away. Generations to come are just simply going to know the Westfalenstadion as the Signal Iduna Park. There really isn't a realistic way to avoid it.

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• 10.11.2009 15:48:49 kaymo

  Looking at the European Leagues today and the commercial aspect that has been cultivated it is probably close to impossible if Fans and communities decide to fully decline new and/or potential sources of monetary income which not only feed the protagonists on but also those off the pitch who are often not of less importance for the success of a club, it's fans and their team. I would appreciate it by far more though if the ventures would adapt the traditions and content of what and who they want their names and brands to be beared by rather than the club, their fans and the tradition of both to hop from a sponsor to the other every 2 or 3 years. Stating for example: Enjoy a Veltins at Schalke or Fans enjoy this or that at the Gunners Ground or in case of Volksparkstadion (Volk means people/nation) a slogan saying: wo sich das Volk auf einen Gläschen Carlsberg trifft (where the nation comes together to enjoy a Carlsberg) or to say it with a view to the premier league: At Anfield Road you enjoy the best Carlsberg ever.
  This would in a way force the ventures interested in sponsoring to choose much more presicely if and whom they want to support. Today Ventures can support Liverpool and tomorrow Everton or today FC St. Pauli and tomorrow Hamburger SV. Tradition and the identification of supporters and fans are not as variable as the interest of a venture may be and this is something both fans, Club Responsibles on the one hand and Companies and Ventures on the other should be aware of. Imagine one day we would have a situation like in the Formula 1 that one of the worlds most leading and important car companies like Toyota retrieve with or without entitled reasons. What if a stadium needs to shut down because a company has pulled the Chapter 11 of their country. If an Emirates is taken over by Gulf Air and the secondly named is supporting Tottenham and not Arsenal. A horrible vision!
  
  The reality today is that Fans literally don't care who may be supporting their team financially as long as somebody is doing it. The ventures on the other hand don't really care which team they support as long as their acitivites and results measure up to their intentions and expectations.
  Bayern Munich for example will soon be having a massiv support by the automobil firm Audi which is actually a venture in the town of Ingolstadt. A town with their own football teams but unfortunately not as successfull as Bayern and looking at the current situation Ingolstadt will probably never be able to get any closer to Bayern, if amounts of 200 Million Euros or more are invested in Bayern Munich and not in any or even all the teams of Ingolstadt. With these measures the Federal State of Bayern will never be able to cultivate a Club Mentality as it is in place in Northrhein Westfalia for example. Isn't it a derby Liverpool vs. ManU or Schalke vs. BVB (Dortmund) that electrifies the masses and certainly not Commerzbank vs. HSH Nord or Audi vs. Daimler (Bayern vs. VFB Stuttgart). The most pathetic of all variations is indeed the imagination of a match between VFL Wolfsburg and FC Bayern next year in which two companies of the same group pay teams to defeat each other. In order to save costs and make even more advertisement why don't they play the match within VW's production site? That would be even more advertisement, right?
  In conclusion I deeply hope that Ventures and their supportive resources will remain a tool for the clubs and not vice versa. Most of all though it is in the responsibility of the responsibles in the Clubs to make sure that no agreement and Sponsor becomes so important that the club is so addicted to the support that in a case of Sponsor Change or less financial sources a club implodes.

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• 11.11.2009 15:13:34 flojan

  I think the acception of a sponsored name depends on various conditions. Colognes "Rheinenergiestadion" for example. The name is given by a local rooted company and is now already a standard in younger Fans vocabulary. Many of them consider it as even rather pronounceable than "Müngersdorfer Stadion". And, if you try it out: They are not that wrong.

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• 11.11.2009 15:19:08 Haensgen vom Deich

  I understand only station...

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• 11.11.2009 15:31:07 Titus Chalk

  Hi,
  
  There were more really good comments in here again and thank you for all the discussion.
  
  Ripuli was probably right, I was feeling a bit pessimistic that day! Overall, I think there are worse problems in the game and if helps clubs survive and compete, then as long as it is done sympathetically, it can be a good way to raise money.
  
  Kaymo also made the intersting point about the Wolfsburg v Bayern games now - that is absolutely ridiculous! And you have to start wondering if that's healthy for competition too...
  
  We'll see what happens anyway. As German clubs voted to keep the 50 + 1 rule, I'm sure it will remain an important revenue stream here for some time.
  
  I'm sure most readers have Robert Enke on their mind more than stadiums today though - so please do read Dirk and the team's great coverage of the tragedy. A very sad day for football indeed :(

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• 11.11.2009 19:02:20 Nesro

  The selling of the stadium name is still a big thing, but the main discussion were in the beginning of this decade.
  And quite different from stadium to stadium. I also remember some big discussions in Nürnberg.
  
  My club, Alemannia Aachen has done it a big different. Even though they built a new stadium, they kept the old name TIVOLI. But a Part of the Ticket-Prize is now the so-called Tivoli-Groschen, which is acutally more like a Tivoli-Euro and makes our tickets relativly expansive.
  One reason for this development was, that the fans and the club decided together to have this solution instead of selling the name. Of course, noone knows what happens when someone offers a few millions. But still, it's a different approach which is accepted by the fans and gives the manager some more financial scope.

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• 11.11.2009 19:37:48 DerBremer

  @Kaymo: I don't think your statement concerning WOB vs. Bayern is correct. The sponsors' influence doesn't reach THAT far. It's the same when last year (?) Chelsea had to play ZSKA Moscow in the Champions League, both teams being financially supported by Roman Abramovich. The VW or Audi managers have in no way the means to make the players play for this or that result.
  
  For the whole of the discussion I can only speak about Werder Bremen. As a fan of this team I am rather happy that we haven't sold our stadium's name, even though we're currently renovating it. I would have accepted a name that resembles the old one, though (e.g. eWeserstadion for ewetel) - if it helps the club.
  
  Names like Signal Iduna Park or easycredit-Stadion or rewirpowerStadion are simply ridiculous, I don't think - apart from brand recognition - there are any advantages for those sponsors.

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• 12.11.2009 00:35:11 yokum

  Well, the (re)naming of the playgrounds is rather mild compared to renaming the teams. Not that I am interested in it, but the Beko (Turkish) Basketball league gives a nice example how a real sponsorship could look like...
  
  Highlights of the coming weekend are certainly (not only regarding the sponsors' names) the matches involving the 3 large Istanbul clubs:
  
  BJK Cola Turka - Efes Pilsen (sofdrink battle)
  GS Cafe Crown - FB Ülker (coffee vs. cookies)
  
  more examples are
  Pınar Karşıyaka - Banvit (Dairy vs. Chicken farm)
  Antalya Büyükşehir Belediyesi - Oyak Renault (Do you think that a german municipality would sponsor a local football team? Oyak Renault is actually an original 'Werksteam')
  
  I am looking forward to see Deutsche Bahn Berlin - Lok Leipzig soon...

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• 13.11.2009 15:05:18 Titus Chalk

  For anyone curious or in need of a laugh, here's how readers of the Guardian newspaper reacted to Newcastle's new stadium name:
  http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/gallery/2009/no v/12/newcastle-stadium-rebranding-st-james-park

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• 25.12.2009 17:32:25 freakadelle

  Hi,
  
  my name is Jonas. Im playing football and Im fan of Borussia Mönchengladbach.
  Obviously we are not playing Champions League but at least the managment is quite good and we have a lot of fans (noone remembers the reason but we stay). So we didnt have to sell the name of our new stadium. Im very happy about that.
  
  I dont like the idea of selling names at all but even when a club has to sell the rights to get enough ressources to build a new arena their are differences in the choosen names.
  
  Bayern Munich e.g.: Its called Allianz Arena. If you miss "Allianz" noone knows about what stadium your talking. But also with the brand that name is not that bad.
  Or Hannover with its Playmobil stadium: Guys, wasnt there ANY other sponsor than Playmobil??? It sounds ridiciolous - but fits very well to the football they play.
  
  What i want to say: Also with a brand in it a stadiumname can have a good sound - or not. As I m not effected yet i cant say if it damages community structures. But anyway if the name is well choosen or not: I dont believe theres any fan who likes to say XY-stadium/arena/park/road/whatever. At least in the Bundesliga we dont have such total desasters as you mentioned for James Park.

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• 25.12.2009 22:59:05 ColePorter

  Playmobil war Fürth, du Nase. ;)
  
  Aber passt auch.

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• 25.12.2009 23:33:02 wojcicki

  my name is Jonas ...
  Das öffnet Türen! Kannste auch nen bißchen dünnes Zeug labern ...

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